Tech Trajectory
Presented by DiUS – where growth, grit, and bold ideas collide to uncover the human side of innovation.
Join us each fortnight as we dive into the journeys of trailblazers shaping the future of technology. Through engaging conversations, we’ll explore career highs and lows, groundbreaking ideas, and the challenges of leading in a rapidly evolving industry.
Whether you’re navigating your own tech trajectory or looking for fresh insights, this podcast is your go-to for inspiration, connection, and actionable takeaways.
Tech Trajectory
Leading on Your Terms: Redefining Ambition, Flexibility & Impact
In this episode of The Tech Trajectory Podcast, host Kavita Kerwar sits down with Karis Dorrigan to explore what leadership looks like when driven by clarity, values, and life’s changing seasons.
From negotiating for flexible work to growing through career transitions and motherhood, Karis shares her journey with candour. She speaks about how to lead with both empathy and commercial focus, why inclusive product teams matter, and the value of redefining success on your own terms.
You’ll hear advice on part-time leadership, the impact of mentorship, and what businesses can do to truly support diverse teams and individuals—not just on paper, but in practice.
1. Flexibility doesn’t mean less ambition
[03:00] Karis discusses working part-time in a senior leadership role—and how she reframed flexibility as a strength, not a sacrifice.
2. Making work work, for people and life
[06:15] Teams thrive when flexible work is seen as a competitive edge. Karis shares practical actions to make part-time and remote employees feel valued.
3. Redefining leadership through motherhood
[09:00] Parenthood shifted Karis’s leadership style, grounding it in empathy, prioritisation, and purpose.
4. Navigating big career transitions
[15:00] Karis reflects on leaving high-profile roles, listening to your instincts, and designing a career that aligns with your values.
5. Leading inclusive product teams
[21:00] Inclusion starts at the strategy stage. Karis shares how she builds empathy into team culture and product decisions.
6. Mentorship and giving back
[24:00] From being mentored to mentoring others, Karis champions honest conversations, advocacy, and opening doors.
7. Advice for future leaders
[27:00] Karis closes with reflections on confidence, clarity, and what she wishes she’d known earlier in her leadership journey.
Where to find Karis Dorrigan
- LinkedIn: Karis Dorrigan
Hello and welcome to the tech trajectory podcast. I'm your host, Kavita Karvar, and today we're talking about what leadership can look like when it's shaped by clarity, not compromise. Joining me in the studio today is Karis Dorrigan, the Head of Product at Freely whose career has spanned Fairfax, Qantas, big red group. She's built high performing teams across media, travel, tech and insurance, while challenging the very traditional playbook on what leadership should look like. And of course, we know Charis through our work at Qantas airline and loyalty. So welcome. Thank you. Very excited to be here. Oh, we're very happy to have you. To keep things interesting, we're going to play a bit of would you rather workplace edition. So let's start off with the first question of, would you rather? Would you rather have an AI assistant that perfectly manages your inbox but occasionally signs off an email with XOXO, or never receive another email again, but then instead have zoom calls or MS teams calls that go for 90 minutes.
Karis Dorrigan:Look, I am a fairly open person, so I'm going to go with the XOXO, because that would not bother me at all. Yeah. Is it giving like Gossip Girl EXO except product life, but 90 minute calls, you know, constantly, maybe you get too much. Yeah? Fair enough,
Kavita Kerwar:yeah. And I think we'll get into, we'll get into a bit of time management, and I'd love to get your views on this, because I know that you're in a senior leadership role, and you're doing it part time like you never hear that often. It's still pretty rare. So how did you how did this come about, and what helped you make it work? Look, I think
Karis Dorrigan:when I had my first child, it was just before COVID, so before I ever went back to work as a working parent, the pandemic had hit, and it had just changed the world, and it was remote working. So I think that really worked in my favor, because most organizations at that time are really open to different working patterns. And, you know, everyone was doing things differently. And so to be honest, I didn't really think about it. I just thought, you know, I want to, I want to be with my children. I love my career, and I absolutely think I can do any role that is advertised as a full time role in a four day capacity. And so I just went for it and had those conversations. And if I think about it at the time, I can count on one hand the people who said no to that. And so most companies were so open, I feel like there's three camps, the ones that are really progressive and it's not even a problem, and just work that through with you. There's a handful that are just hard nos, and there's some that are in between, and I feel like that signal to me is, well, they're probably not quite there, and I don't want to be working in an organization that maybe says yes, but then you turn up and everything's a bit challenging. So I think you need to really choose the companies that go, you know, hell yes to this. But I think that does come with caution, because I do think now things are slightly shifting, and it may may be more challenging to find those companies that are really comfortable with the four day work pattern now that we've got, you know, a bit of a push back into return to the office. And so I think it's still possible, and people should still absolutely go for it, but I think it's a little bit harder than it was when I really stepped into this working model. Yeah, I think that's a that's a great point, because you're right. I think since COVID Now, there's been a there's been a steer where people kind of associate being back at work at work, of being physically present in the office as being more productive? Yes. And one of the questions I had is we often hear that asking for flexibility equals that maybe you're not ambitious enough. So how do we challenge that as individuals and as leaders? Yeah, I think it's a really interesting question. And from a leadership perspective, I think we just need to challenge our own biases. And so when people ask for a four day work week, and the initial response of your mind might be, I really need that five day person. There's so think really challenge. You know, if we're out, if we're much to do. I moving to an outcome driven world, we want impact, not output. I 100% believe that you can achieve that with whether it's a five day work week or a four day work week. Totally lost my train.
Kavita Kerwar:That's okay. So I think what I'm hearing you say is that when you've got more constraints and you're focusing more on the outcomes rather than the hours you're putting in on hitting those outcomes and hitting those milestones. And I think at the end of the day, that that's what matters to any business, that's what matters to any team, that they are supported by a leader who helps them deliver on those rather than the leader that perhaps is there every second minute and physically present in the office. Yeah. And I think from an individual perspective, it's then, yeah.
Karis Dorrigan:So also, really being clear on what the outcomes and impact everything that you are doing is having, right? So you know, what are the low value tasks you can get off your plate? We have aI now. So you know, how can they boost your productivity, to help you spend your time in the complex human work? And say, No, you know, I think in product and technology, we should be great at prioritization. So prioritize your workload is really important. And I think also I'm very clear on my boundaries. So, you know, what do I really want to do, and what actually am I saying no to? And what are my boundaries in a workplace when I am working part time or different working patterns, because you can often end up just doing the full time role but not getting paid the full time salary. So I also think it's really important to be really clear on your boundaries and what that'll look like for you as an individual that wants that kind of working rhythm.
Kavita Kerwar:Yeah, I really like, I really like those strategies. I think some of these are, like, very easily actionable, and there's so much data now on different kind of tools to use for prioritization. And it doesn't even have to be someone who's working a four day week. It could be someone who's just across different priorities. How do you then prioritize your day when you're juggling multiple priorities, and then using AI to your advantage, using other tools to your advantage, to maybe reduce your workload or focus more on the tasks that require more of that creative input from Yes,
Karis Dorrigan:absolutely. And I think there's also an element of role shaping. And you know, I'm lucky that I lead a team. And you know, if you're building the next generation of leaders, you need to give them opportunity. So if you are working in a compressed work week or a different working pattern, being really comfortable carving out space and helping your team to lift up as well, because that's going to help them and help you. And so I think that's a really important thing to think about as well. If you are wanting to step into a more senior role, get comfortable with giving some of the big, meaty leadership tasks to, you know, the next wave of talent coming up the pipeline? Oh
Kavita Kerwar:yeah, 100% I think one of the things that you touched on, I'm glad you touched on leadership, is there's often people in our teams who are working part time or who are who maybe want more flexibility. So what can practical actions can leaders take, or team members take to make remote employees or people who are working in flexible schedules feel more included. I
Karis Dorrigan:think this is I'm going to be reflecting on a lot lately, and I think there's some really foundational things that we can do and we often and we need to take the time to intentionally think about it. So, you know, for example, if we think about a working week and all of our key meetings. How are we making sure that meetings are in core hours, or everyone has the chance to show up in person or hybrid but on the days that they're in the office? So I think we need to be really intentional about that. And I also think we need to make sure that we're not putting that burden on the, you know, one part time worker to tell us what needs to happen, we need to really think about, well, how are we designing workplaces as leaders, and how we kind of making sure that those voices are heard, versus asking the one part time worker to participate in the working group around flexibility as an example. So I think that's really critical.
Kavita Kerwar:Yeah, I remember when I was working part time, and this is very early on in my career, and we would have, there was certain days that I was at uni, so I would be, you know, not at work, and we always had our critical planning and prioritization meetings on that day and the next day, morning, nine, it was an update on, how did you go? What was your feedback? And I was like, I don't know, what's how you feel? Really left
Karis Dorrigan:out about inclusivity. It is, you know, a space that makes us feel like we're not part of the conversation, and then there's that guilt, right for those people who can't be there. So that's why I think it's so important that leadership step in and lead through that. Because probably that person at uni or has just become a mom and is coming back to the workplace doesn't have the confidence to put their hand up, so how do we make sure that they don't have to? Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar:yeah, absolutely. So I guess if you flip that a bit, then how can businesses perhaps reframe having a flexible, you know, workforce as a competitive edge in some instances, and not just as a compromise? Because more often than not, you see the rhetoric even in the media, like going into the office, or like the end of the work from home, or the end of flexible working. So I guess if there, I wonder if there's like a shift here where we can reframe this as our business has more of a competitive edge because of our flexible workplace. And I think it
Karis Dorrigan:absolutely does for many reasons. Well, that's certainly my perspective, and I think a lot of the research, but I think the real critical point here is that flexibility is something that we all enjoy, and it helps us all thrive through our lives, and it really has to move away from the working parent getting access. Flexibility because of their caring status, to something that everyone can benefit from. I was at this conversation a couple of weeks ago where one of the women were talking about the fact that we're now leading five generations of people across all walks of life. So with that, there's so many different needs. There's people who might, you know, have a neurodiversity challenge and need to work from home. There's the elderly who want to contribute, who maybe can't commute. There's working parents. There's people who just want to have fun and see their family and go to the gym. And so I think flexibility needs to be something that everyone is afforded, for it to really for it to really be a benefit for all?
Kavita Kerwar:Oh, definitely. And I think if we just focus on one kind of working is the best way of working, you'd be at a risk of alienating to your to your point, like five different generations. So finding commonality and supporting everyone so that they feel to your point earlier, included, and they feel part of the workplace, and they can feel productive and empowered to do their job. I think that's
Karis Dorrigan:yeah. And I think the other thing on my mind is really around mental health and wellbeing, which is such a big part of the workplace conversation, and also such you know, if we are living healthy lives and we're flourishing, we're going to be more highly engaged, be more creative, be more innovative. And so flexibility, to me, is a pillar of making sure that we are creating a really mentally healthy workplace, and that is going to tick all of those real big benefits around how we're engaging our workforce and driving innovation and creativity.
Kavita Kerwar:Yep. All right, I wanted to shift the next question and focus on a bit that you mentioned earlier, your journey since becoming a parent and then working in the workforce and having such a senior role. So one thing we often hear a lot, but does it get mentioned as much in the workplace, is the pressure to have it all. You know, the have it all myth, and this can weigh quite heavily, especially on working parents. How have you redefined as to what this means for you? Yeah,
Karis Dorrigan:I think that's a really great question. And I think for me, you know, having it all is it really has a lot of baggage around having this perfect life, you know, hitting the C suite, having a thriving family, you know, going to Europe, doing all the things. And, you know, I think that is really something that we need to kind of challenge, because whilst it might tick all of those boxes from an external perspective, actually, is it going to make you happy? Big Question mark. So for me, it's really about shifting that narrative from having it all to living my values fully. And that, you know, has been a journey for me, but I think has crystallized through parenthood, and I've had a lot more clarity in that. And I think when we think about, well, am I showing up and living my values through my life? Be that at home with my family, with my friends, and through my career and living aligned to that. I think for me, that's what's having it all, and I think we can have that, but it also means make prioritizing, making the decisions around what's important in that moment of your life, and it means saying no to a lot of things. And so for me, you know, my core values at this time in my life are connection, adventure, integrity, and if I think about those things, I can absolutely have those through every facet of my life.
Kavita Kerwar:Yeah, 100% I really, this really resonates with me, because I'm South Asian, and we have such a strong social conditioning from, like, a really young age of you need to have it all, and especially if you are female. Then in the 90s, at least, everyone's parents wanted their children to eventually be successful and be financially independent, and then you have all this pressure. I mean, financial independence is a great thing. That's not what it's like, but you have a great pressure of trying to be like a CEO, or aiming to be C suite, and then being Martha Stewart at home and having these amazing children and an amazing very condo at home. And that's not what having it all means, does it? Doesn't mean putting all that pressure on yourself. And this really resonates with me, like finding out what you need and what values of life do you need to make you happy totally.
Karis Dorrigan:And I mean, I've been there too, right? You know? Oh yes, the C suite job is going to make me so happy. But now, to be honest, if I thought about the C suite job, maybe it's what I want, but if I think about my value of connection and time with my family, and what that looks like now, it will probably be a no for me at this point in my life, because I have a great career. I'm Senior, I'm driving impact. I've got amazing colleagues and an amazing boss who supports what I need in life and outside of life. And so if that, if that job came to me now, and it meant saying no to home life, I would have to. A quite easily no to the role,
Kavita Kerwar:yeah, and that's very powerful. And I guess it's also because you're so self aware now of what you need to thrive and what makes you happy, whether you're in the workplace or at home. Yes,
Karis Dorrigan:totally. And if that job came up and it ticked all those boxes and it didn't eat into connection as a value, then that's a very different conversation to have.
Kavita Kerwar:Yeah, that's That's great. My next question was going to be, How has being a parent shifted your approach to leadership or decision making? But I think you've already answered,
Karis Dorrigan:yeah, I know. So I think it's just made everything more crystal clear, yeah,
Kavita Kerwar:did parenthood kind of help you shift or gravitate towards certain kind of roles or certain companies. Do you think?
Karis Dorrigan:Look, I think it to my earlier points, has made me much more intentional about the companies that I've worked for. It's made me think about much making sure that the companies are aligned to my values and my needs as a person, not just as a worker. So 100% yes, it has, and it's all around values alignment. You know, I can have time at work and with my family and those organizations really do believe in the progressive views of ways of working in the future of work, yeah.
Kavita Kerwar:And I guess for our listeners, it doesn't even have to be parenthood, necessarily. It might just be you're at the point in time in your life where you're looking back and you're reflecting on your conditioning and being like, am I running towards a job, and is this actually giving me happiness, or do I need to look at what value is bringing to my life, and how do I make sure that I'm happy and thriving in
Karis Dorrigan:the world? Yeah. I mean, wouldn't it be great if I figured these things out 30 years ago? So yes, I think it's so important every aspect of your life. Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar:you spoken about, you know, your life and your home life and work life, what support systems at home or at work have made the biggest difference in helping you lead?
Karis Dorrigan:Well, look, I think honestly, on this question, to answer this question, I don't think there have been any big, amazing support systems that have made it work, which I think is disappointing, and I think is why I'm so passionate about having these conversations around what that does look like. So we can provide a supportive working environment for parents and solo parents in particular, but everyone ultimately wins, I think, through that. So, you know, that's the, I guess, truth of the matter, but in terms of, then support systems more generally, I think for me, it's hasn't been the big, burly one thing. It's been all of the small things that we put in place to help us. And so, you know, reflecting on this, I think one is just myself being clear on those values, those boundaries, and really being true to that. My second is my mother, who looks after my kids on a Thursday, which is my working in the office, one of my work in the office days, and so that takes a lot of stress out of things, and they get time with her, and then it's all the small things. So I had a bit of a meltdown at work about a month ago, and my boss is like, charis, you need to outsource more, get a cleaner. And I did game changer. So, you know, these like, what is humans and women. Can we outsource? Yep, you know, I have a robo mower. Game Changer. The mindset of lowering my lawn, mowing my lawn gone. Yes, all those little things that add up. And then I think finally, in terms of this isn't really a support system, but it's just we, well, I, you know, everyone, but particularly working moms and parents, I think, have a lot of guilt, so it's just like, just lose that.
Kavita Kerwar:Wow. Yeah, I think that makes, that makes a lot of sense. Like, I remember a few years back, I was looking back at a weekend and thinking, Where did all my time go? And I noted down all my tasks, and I was like, wow, I've spent a lot of time weeding this lawn and doing the lawn mowing. And I'm not very, you know, hands on. I'm not very hands and I was like, oh, I need to, yeah, outsource where possible, and work smarter or not. Yes, yeah, do the things you love and, you know, automate the things that you don't love. Yes, I love that you're right. It's time to play another Would You Rather? Would you rather negotiate with a toddler mid tantrum and talking like big tantrum here, or a stakeholder mid scope group. So this is an easy one for me, stakeholder mid scope. Oh,
Karis Dorrigan:by far, okay. I think Parenthood has made my working life much easier because it's like, Oh, that wasn't so challenging as I once thought it was, yeah,
Unknown:a bit more predictable. The workplace is a bit more predictable. Yeah, I can self regulate. Oh, emotional meltdowns, yeah,
Karis Dorrigan:most of the time.
Kavita Kerwar:Oh, I love all right. Okay, let's talk a bit about your career design. And growth as a leader, because, looking back even at your introduction, you've worked across some several very recognizable Australian brands. What's guided you through these transitions? Look, you know, I'd have to say, earlier in my career, not a lot guided me. I really did just roll with what I did. Well, just naturally, very bold, yeah. And I just kind of, I did fall into product management, you know, I definitely had a strength in that area, and some advice to try my hat at product management, which was sage advice at the time, because I had no idea what it even was
Karis Dorrigan:quite a while ago now, yeah. And so early on, it was follows, following where my strengths were. Then I was really thinking about what I my purpose and what I loved, and that was probably not as nuanced as now. I love travel. So working, you know, getting the role at Qantas was a huge career milestone for me to really work on a company that was very aligned to what I love and how I can support people, enjoy travel and enjoy life. And then, you know, definitely has, I've been much clearer on that now. And I think a big transition for me was leaving Qantas, and I did reflect on what I really enjoyed through in product management and in the tech space, and when I looked back on my time, there it was post COVID. So, you know, everyone was stood down, and there was time to think. And so I had really gone into organizations for a long time, probably 10 plus years, coming in and driving change transformation and moving organizations from very output to outcome, businesses from being project to customer focus. So really, you know, as we all know, bringing that product and customer centric model into businesses, which is so rewarding, but you know, to be honest, became really draining, and the hard work, and it's all about constantly changing hearts and minds. And so I really wanted to step out of that into working for organizations that absolutely understand and support and create cultures that product can really thrive. So you're spending more time doing great work, driving innovation, building great teams, than driving change. And so that's where I am. Now. It's about that's what I love. Maybe one day I'll step back into that transformation space. But it's about working for companies and in product, we can drive innovation and do great work through best practice, in terms of that, you know, way of working that we all love. Yeah, I think that's,
Kavita Kerwar:that's a great response, because it sounds like it's a very natural it was a very natural fit for your personality, and you were very comfortable taking those risks and also moving through boldly in your career. For those who are perhaps a bit more unsure of what's next, like like you touched on reflecting back at your time like post Qantas, What signs do you think it's worth listening to for someone who's unsure of charting their career?
Karis Dorrigan:Look, I think it's really important to take the time to think about, you know, what energizes you and what in your role are you loving? And are you really, you know, in flow and really excited about what are you really not loving, and what's draining you and kind of sucking your energy. And I think starting to understand your values if you don't, and that can be really, you know, some people, yes, I know my values. Of course, they're just, you know, of course, I understand that. And some like, oh, I don't know where to start. Like, what are values? And so I think spending some time understanding that. And you can do some really interesting, you know, you can go into the via character strengths, which is a free online survey tool, which is very well regarded, and kind of understand your character strengths. Character Strengths. Gallup does a great strength server which is more corporate related, but it's, you know, backed by quite a bit of evidence that can, I think it's like $25 you can learn a bit about your working style. And so use all of these data points to start to think about, What do I love, what am I good at? You know, what are my values? And then how can I align that to my career would be, I think, a good starting point. I think important technology also to my point earlier about my career around transformation and then more product innovation. You know, product and tech is so different in Australia and so different by organization, which is why I think some people, particularly probably early or mid career, like struggle a bit, but kind of knowing if you are a delivery orientated product leader, if you are love customer and you love innovation, or you love translation and change, thinking about those buckets will help you understand what companies to work for, because product and tech comes in so many different shapes and sizes in Australia, and you really need To find that fit, I think, to kind of really enjoy your career.
Kavita Kerwar:Yep, I think that's great response. That's something that I've reflected on a lot as well. Like, what I like to do is I do like a bit of research, because it's so easy to get caught on in what have you done in the past that you were good at and until you sit and unpack? Did you actually enjoy it? Were you. You thriving in it, or were you just running on adrenaline because there was a change milestone, and you were just revving to hit that milestone. But understanding your values and understanding what helps you thrive will then help you make career choice that align
Karis Dorrigan:strengths are so interesting, right? Because we look at our strengths, but if you think about what a strength actually is, it's something that you're good at, but something that energizes you. So you might be good a lot of things, but they actually are not a strength because you don't enjoy them. So I think that's a real Gotcha. Yeah. I also find
Kavita Kerwar:it interesting that at the start, you mentioned you just fell into product management, which often seems to be the case, and you had perhaps a mentor the start of your of your career journey. So how, I guess my question is, has mentorship played a broader role in your journey, and how do you mentor and advocate for others? Now, you
Karis Dorrigan:know, I think women probably have, well, maybe it's a generalization, but I certainly haven't had too many mentors and sponsors through my life. Probably I should have tip to my listeners to kind of seek those out. I actually have an amazing mentor now, and I think what sets her apart she's not in the business. She's an external mentor. She's a great sounding board, but she also helps me just build self confidence in my path. But, you know, I think what sets away at part great mentors issues also in my corner and takes action on my behalf, right? So she might be opening a door, getting me access to a conference, and just doing more than being a passive sideline coach or advisor and actually stepping and helping someone lift their career, I think, is what really makes for a great mentor. And if I reflect on my career, when I was managing really large teams, it was really interesting, because a lot of the entry level male team members would reach out for me for a coffee, which is fantastic, you know, high talent, great people. Love supporting people, but then the most senior women would feel like they're wasting my time. And so I think as women, we need to, when we think about our career, not just do the great work. You know, work hard and get the promotion. Work hard and do all of that, but also invest time in building relationships and finding your mentors and believing that you are worthy of their time.
Kavita Kerwar:Yeah, that's very powerful. And I remember hearing a quote that someone said, Is your advocate or mentor? Is someone who speaks your name or speaks of your achievements highly in rooms that you don't have access and it sounds like you've, you've had someone who's been able to do that for you. Yeah,
Karis Dorrigan:yeah, totally. And then if I think about myself, for me now, it's really around and to that conversation around, you know, the people that are contacting you to have conversations, I intentionally will now reach out to people. I'll say yes to some or all of those people that want to chat to me, but I'll make sure I'm intentionally carving out time for other people that probably don't have the confidence to reach out to me and help them through their career and see how I can support them.
Kavita Kerwar:Yeah, that's a great that's a great point. I've had the same observations as well, where I've had, like, grads and like technical grads, where they had men who'd reach out, like, quicker for either understanding if there was a new opening in the team to understand, like, Okay, what skill sets do you need? And then you'd have women who would be very hesitant, and I hate that. This is a generalization, but I've also seen it happen in the workplace so often then I'm like, this is a stereotype that that's there, yeah,
Karis Dorrigan:and I think, you know, if we we want to champion the men and like, that's awesome. I wish I had that, you know, in a in a belief when I was younger in my career. So for me, it's about supporting that, but then lifting the women up and making sure that, particularly being a leader and having the privilege to be in a position to support people and women and solo parents. As my kind of personal mission is to say yes to the helping, you know, the men moving up in their career, but also bringing in the women to that conversation so we can get that equity, that diversity, that balance of supporting different people in the workplace. Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar:that's fantastic. Should we play another Would You Rather? Oh, okay, yeah, okay, okay. Would you rather redo your entire LinkedIn profile from scratch or give us a price keynote in five minutes, but no slides allowed.
Karis Dorrigan:Oh, 100% I would be doing my LinkedIn profile 1000 times over chat. GPT, me, I'm a planner, I'm a thinker, I'm an introvert. So that is my worst nightmare, giving us a speech, no slides in five minutes to. Prepare? Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar:that's what I do as well. I'm like LinkedIn next, I'll
Karis Dorrigan:do it for like month, and I would extrovert. I
Kavita Kerwar:don't think introvert. It has anything to do with it. Like doing a keynote that's probably recorded and streamed and you're not prepared. That's like the worst nightmare. So
Karis Dorrigan:you do that thing of nightmares for me, for sure. So
Kavita Kerwar:talking about your leadership, my next question is about your role as head of product. So how do you lead with both empathy and an eye on commercial focus? Yeah,
Karis Dorrigan:it's a great question, and I think something that has certainly evolved as I have grown in my career, and it can be really challenging, right? Let's be honest, I think it's a really challenging thing that we all face. From my perspective, however, you know, we always start with a customer. And so it's a really having a great understanding of our customer problems, our opportunities and what is happening in the landscape. And so from my perspective, everything starts in customer, from strategy through to feature initiative, you know, any optimizations, but always, that's the steel thread through everything that we do. And then with that, we layer on commercial as well. So, you know, commercial is also always critical, and is really the driving force behind what we need to do. So at freely, we're driving growth. And also, you know, our goal this year is to become a profitable business and business. So we really need to be very clear on what metrics we're moving and what are the important metrics for us to really change the game on. And so I always look at both, but I really think about starting with a customer and then making decisions based on the commercial impact of what we do would be would be, I guess part one. I think the second thing is really where you are in your growth journey and how you're performing from a scorecard perspective. And so if your scorecard is all in the red and the PnL is looking very sad, then you're going to be in tactical mode to really drive all the commercial levers. And you might feel, as a product person, that your customer is a bit lost. I always tell my team is not lost, because everything we're doing is through the customer. But we're probably more in day to day mode than the big vision. And then when we're looking at our scorecard, and everything's going really well, we've got a lot of greens, you know, we can make bolder, riskier plays around driving bigger customer ambitions that we may not be as confident on. From a commercial perspective, we think there's something in it, but, you know, we we have kind of low to medium confidence of our commercial outcomes, and that's probably where we certainly in freely will start to really push things. So we have to have both of those views to make the right decision. From a product perspective,
Kavita Kerwar:how do you when you when you're driving your product strategy, and I'm assuming that this is not when you're in technical mode and when your PNL is very sad and unhappy, but when it's but when it's a strategic vision. How do you ensure that inclusion is embedded into your product strategy from the beginning?
Karis Dorrigan:Yeah, I think this is a great question, and something, you know, I'm not sure if we do super well at the moment and are really intentional about it, though, you know, I think in conscious we absolutely were, we were so at freely. I think it's all around, you know, who's at the table, making sure that we have a diverse workforce, making sure that our team represent and our people sort of represent our customers in many ways. And we have, you know, diversity of thought and innovation on our product team would be kind of part of what we're doing. And then when we think about customer it's also about making sure that we are we have a cross section that includes and has a slice of diversity. So we're thinking about the different demographics. We're making sure we have people who might have medical conditions that we need to support. You know, we're making sure that we're selecting our audience, that we're talking to that represent those different groups and can feed into how we're building our product. Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar:absolutely. Is there a product decision that you're proud of, something that maybe challenged the assumptions or sparked a change or a shift?
Karis Dorrigan:So at the moment, you know, I'm really proud about something that's coming, and so I can't share everything about it, but it's really around, I don't think it's about like I'm, you know, it's really around how we're reshaping the industry and how we're thinking about travel insurance. One of our big ambitions is to move travel insurance away from being a holiday tax that has no value to a really meaningful product that helps our customers, and we add service and value for them and so, and if you look at the travel insurance market, it's very generic, it's very commoditized. It's very much about the transaction. And then, you know, hopefully they don't claim. And, yeah. Yeah, we're all happy for a business perspective, but we really want to flip that and think about, well, how are we providing real value to our customers, and what does value mean to them? So coming soon, we'll be thinking about, what does that look like for us, and how do we start to add value to our long term loyal customers, which is going to be quite unique, I think, in the travel insurance space, yeah, so keep an eye out for free. Oh,
Kavita Kerwar:very excited, yeah, thanks. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I'm very excited to see what you do here, because I recently traveled overseas, and I had to, and I was doing like, canine ring or something, so I had to, like, go and get more cover, rather than the regular cover that I had. And then you you notice, like, the different stages of cover you can get based on the activity you intend to do when you're traveling. And I was like, it's very transactional. This, yes, duration of your travel, this is how much you pay, and this is the activities it'll be interesting to
Karis Dorrigan:see. Yes, I'm really excited about that, about, you know, it's gonna be the first wave of how we're giving customers more value. But that's absolutely our ambition, to continue to create more value and more service offerings that can can give customers what they need beyond just if something goes wrong.
Kavita Kerwar:Very exciting. All right, let's let's say another Would You Rather? Okay, would you rather manage your team? And I know we've spoken about this before. Where about automation, where every tool and every process is AI augmented, or stick with something purely human centered workflow, no automation. I think I know what
Karis Dorrigan:I'm totally doing, AI augmentation. Because why do I do low value tasks?
Kavita Kerwar:But you do know like, there's the risk of hallucinations, like, Yeah, but that's augmentation.
Karis Dorrigan:So the humans are still there to do the rational, to do the big thinking, make the judgment calls, but we're losing all of that low value work and using our, you know, creativity and our minds for the impactful the high outcome work, which I think is really important. Fantastic.
Kavita Kerwar:Thank you. I think I knew very much. I would have been very shocked if you were like no humans will do everything, please. Now, all right, we've touched on this in some of the themes we've explored in the podcast around the next generation of leaders. What's something you know now that you maybe wished you had known early on in your career journey.
Karis Dorrigan:I think for this one, it's my leadership style is my strength. Oh, you know, because I'm not naturally someone with a lot of self belief. I've built that over time. And if I reflect on my career, I've had moments I've been told I'm a passive leader. Moments I've been told I'm an aggressive leader, which is interesting, but all through that, I think I was the same leader, and that is absolutely one of my strengths. You know how I lead and build great teams? So I wish that I knew and believed myself earlier on in my leadership journey. What
Kavita Kerwar:helped you build this belief? I'm just so curious.
Karis Dorrigan:I you know, there's not one thing, right? It's age.
Kavita Kerwar:You also do a lot of reflection, responses,
Karis Dorrigan:yeah, reflecting. And, you know, self growth. I do a lot of meditation to get that monkey mind out of, out of my brain. I do a lot of gratitude practices. So it's all those little habits, right? You're also
Kavita Kerwar:very you come across as very data driven, like the way you you've charted your values and the way you've given examples to our listeners, even the tools you also are very data driven. I thank you. That's what I you know, take I haven't had those feedback. Appreciate it. Yeah, it's very like, I love it, though, because you're meditative, you're reflective, and you're very data origin so you know exactly, and you're very grounded. That's what I see. That makes lovely.
Karis Dorrigan:Thank you. Oh, my pleasure.
Kavita Kerwar:Oh, because I guess one of my next question was going to be very early on, early on in people's journeys. It's quite daunting to switch. Like, in your case, from like, want us to say insurance is quite, quite different switch. So how do you build confidence for someone who isn't familiar with moving into new roles? More often than not, women in particular, seem to have a lot of imposter syndrome then leaps in. Do you have any tips for our listeners as to what look
Karis Dorrigan:I think there's one type like I have had a lot of minor imposter syndrome and self doubt, but there's been one standout moment that I had a lot of imposter syndrome. And if I reflect on that moment in my career, you know, I was running two I was doing two jobs at the same time because it was a higher phrase. I couldn't backfill a role there were. The leadership structure was really unclear. So I was managing a matrix team with four sponsors. You know, I was really but. Burnt out.
Kavita Kerwar:That's a lot of expectation, yeah, and I
Karis Dorrigan:was just pushing through, right? If I do this, you know, it'd be great for my career, the business needed. And I was just pushing, pushing, pushing, and I'd lost sense of all my boundaries. Actually, that was a moment that I've became much more clear and my boundaries because I won't ever let that happen again. So if I think about that, and I think about imposter syndrome, it's it's going to be larger and more pronounced when you're not your best self, or when you're burnt out, or you haven't taken that time to reflect, or you're not doing the things that you love, you've stopped going to the gym, you've stopped doing your meditation, whatever it is that you do. So I think my advice, if you're really feeling an imposter syndrome is to just take a bit of a check, like, are you okay? Do you need to do anything to get your foundation set? Whatever that looks like for you. So me, it would be, you know, meditation, going to the gym, you know, maybe just taking a mental health day from work, resetting right, whatever that, and that's gonna look different for every single person. And then I think you can be much more objective with with that, and you've just got to challenge yourself, because imposter syndrome is just telling your you not to do something that's might be a bit scary, or you're doing it for the first time. So it's a natural response. I think you've got to challenge your own internal dialog, which sounds so easy, but it's not right. Yeah, one,
Kavita Kerwar:one piece of advice I heard from someone recently. It's exactly this. It's like, get off the hamster wheel and reflect. But also, when you're reflecting, don't beat yourself up because, yeah, don't be critical. And if you are receiving, if you're in an organization that sends lots of emails, and you have any emails that say, Praise your work or love your work, save those. Yeah, I love it because, because then you go back and go to your kudos folder, I am not, you know what I think I am. Look at all this data. Look at what people are actually saying I'm doing, and the value that I'm adding, and that helps. So you can look at data and be like, No, I am Yes,
Karis Dorrigan:I am fine. And have your support people, I guess, to extend on that in a more you've got your data, then chat to people that you trust and get their feedback, or just get your girlfriends to lift you up. Yeah, and I do, I also do love a bit of self compassion. So it's like, well, I always tell myself I'm a great mom. I'm doing a great job. I have a great home, you know, you got to tell yourself these things, yeah.
Kavita Kerwar:And to your, you know, your description of the scenario, it sounded like four different sponsors. It would be stressful for anyone. So, yeah, just Oh, totally. It's the environment as Yes. So it is getting off the hamster wheel might help you get it from a different line. And
Karis Dorrigan:often I would say imposter syndrome is probably more about the environment than you. Oh, right. Because if you're in a supportive environment with the right people, with a great leader supporting you in that step, you're probably not going to have imposter syndrome or to be much, you know, won't be loud, yeah,
Kavita Kerwar:yeah. Thank you. I think that was very insightful. Should we do our last Would You Rather Okay? Would you rather be known as a visionary leader who pushes boundaries, or a steady leader who builds rock solid teams?
Karis Dorrigan:I would rather be known as a visionary leader. Oh,
Kavita Kerwar:okay, because we think about
Karis Dorrigan:my values are an adventure. Yeah, I love innovation. I want to change things. That's why I love freely. You know, I want to change travel insurance for the better. So, yeah, you know, I want to, I want to contribute to a better world and create great experiences for customers.
Kavita Kerwar:Oh, fantastic, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much for your time. So welcome. Thank you. This was great. Thank you very much. Lovely to chat. Yeah.
