From Startups to Enterprises: Leadership Lessons from a Career in Tech

Episode introduction
Careers don’t always follow a straight line, and for Jessica Lin, the detours have been the most rewarding part. In this episode of The Tech Trajectory, she joins host Kavita Kerwar to share what she’s learned from leading through change, jumping into unfamiliar industries, and building teams that thrive under pressure. From managing cultural shifts to overcoming imposter syndrome, Jessica offers practical advice on how to embrace uncertainty, back yourself in, and grow as a leader. And yes, there’s a game of Jenga, because leadership is as much about balance and bold moves as it is about strategy.

Guest bio
Jessica Lin is Executive Manager of Retail Technology – Digital Core Experiences at Commonwealth Bank. With leadership roles at AWS, Airbus, Qantas and Linktree, Jessica has led diverse technology teams through rapid growth, transformation, and cross-industry transitions.

Episode summary
In this candid and insightful conversation, Jessica reflects on the mindset that’s helped her embrace career pivots with curiosity rather than fear, and how she’s adapted her leadership style across vastly different environments from nimble startups to global enterprises. She shares how she challenges her team to think bigger and take ownership, what she learned from her most difficult role abroad, and how she’s worked through imposter syndrome. Jessica also breaks down the difference between mentorship and sponsorship, and why both matter in shaping a career. Along the way, she offers real stories, practical advice, and one very relatable Jenga metaphor, reminding us that leadership isn’t about having all the answers, but being open to growth.

Key takeaways

1. Embracing change through curiosity
[02:50] Career shifts can be opportunities, not setbacks.
[03:50] Transferable skills like leadership and adaptability build confidence in new environments.
[05:50] Curiosity and asking questions often lead to support, not resistance.

2. Adapting leadership to context and scale
[07:05] Startups need fast decisions and risk-taking; large organisations require structure and alignment.
[08:55] Clear direction and adaptability add value in any setting.
[09:40] Stretch goals and support help teams step up.
[11:00] Innovation happens when challenge is balanced with care.

3. Navigating setbacks and building resilience
[13:10] Not every role is the right fit—honesty protects wellbeing.
[14:40] Cultural awareness is just as important as technical skill.
[16:00] Letting go of pride can unlock deeper growth.

4. Redefining confidence and communication
[18:10] Imposter syndrome often stems from comparison, especially around communication style.
[19:50] Feedback reframed quietness as a leadership strength.
[20:30] Leadership impact doesn’t require being the loudest voice.

5. Growing through others—mentorship and sponsorship
[24:10] Sponsors push for opportunities behind the scenes.
[27:10] Mentors help shape direction and decisions.
[31:30] Come prepared—clear goals make mentorship more valuable.

Resources

• How I Built This Podcast
• Coursera

Where to find Jessica Lin
LinkedIn: Jessica Lin

Follow us on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube.

Transcript

Kavita Kerwar: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the tech trajectory podcast, where we uncover the human side of leadership and resilience. I'm Kavita Karvar, and today we're talking about navigating career shifts, stepping into new industries and leading through change. Joining me in the studio today is Jessica Lin. Jessica has built an impressive career leading technology teams in aviation, cloud computing and now banking. She's worked at some of the biggest names, from Amazon Web Services to Airbus, Qantas and now theCommonwealth Bank of Australia, where she leads digital experience for retail banking. Welcome Jessica. Today, we'll be diving into what it takes to step into unfamiliar territory, scaling high performance teams and building a leadership style that thrives in change to add an extra challenge, we've got a Jenga in the studio here with us, so what we might do is do a question and then play with a Jenga, if that's okay. Okay. Are you good at

Jessica Lin: 0:57

Jenga? Not necessarily unfamiliar territory.

Kavita Kerwar: 1:01

Okay, all right. So now I think the first question I wanted to ask is a bit of an icebreaker, and this is about your dog who has the most interesting name, potato. So tell me, if potato could have any job in the world, what do you think he'd be the best at?

Jessica Lin: 1:20

Oh, he's such a special dog. He's actually very introverted dog and very nervous, but he's very loving. So I think if he were to have a job, probably will be a good therapist. Oh, because I think he can be very empathetic to other people and connected with his own thought feelings inside. So I think he will be a good therapist.

Kavita Kerwar: 1:45

Oh, good listener, then, good listener, very calm. Oh, that's so lovely. All right, ready for some Jenga? Let's do it. Okay? I will go first, and then I will let's

Jessica Lin: 1:54

see. Let's see. Let's see. Do you have a strategy? Oh,

Kavita Kerwar: 1:58

man, I wish I did. I really wish I did. Okay, your turn? Do you want to do you want to go next? I actually think Jenga is a perfect metaphor for leadership, like you could have strategic move, some calculated risks, and in my case, definitely like trying to avoid total collapse. I

Jessica Lin: 2:21

don't know if you could tell that I wasn't listening to you when I was Oh, my God,

Kavita Kerwar: 2:27

you have, you have a great folk face. All right, so I guess when I was describing your career, it careers are rarely a straight line, and you've traversed across various industries. Reflecting back on your career, what was your biggest learning curve when you moved across industries?

Jessica Lin: 2:51

So actually, I like to think that I don't necessarily look at it as a challenge moving across industry. It's actually something that excites me. I love learning about new businesses, learning about what the problem they're trying to solve. So I think ultimately it's the curiosity that's driving me to change industry. I didn't plan for any of those changes. Those opportunity came up, and I was more like, oh, never done that before. Maybe I should give it a try. Oh. So I suppose one way, the way I'm describing here, is that I'm not going in seeing it as a challenge or obstacle. I'm actually embracing it as an opportunity to learn and be curious. So that kind of helped me to frame in a positive way going in, I suppose,

Kavita Kerwar: 3:37

Oh, that's fantastic. So what would be your advice to someone who maybe is uncertain. So how do they go about going from uncertainty to what you've just described as embracing change?

Jessica Lin: 3:47

Yeah, so, so I think one, like, I said positive mindset. Just change your own frame of mind first of all, so you go in positively. And then, typically, if I'm going into a, let's say we start from interview, right? I'm going to interview to a company in the industry where I never worked with before. What I do is I try to focus on my transferable skills, pitching my transferable skills to hiring manager, because a lot of skills we have around, say, leadership or technology or collaboration, all of those skills are transferable no matter which industry you go into, so that gives me the confidence I can still bring value no matter which industry I go to. And I want to make sure that shows through in my interview when I speak to the hiring manager. And then once I join, I think, like I said, keeping that curiosity open so I will often talk to colleagues and ask them about what do you do. How do you do this? Why do you do that? And 99% of the time, people are very supportive and helpful, and they love to talk about what they do. So they usually welcome questions. They actually get excited about somebody being curious about their role. So it helps me to learn. That way, by learning from other colleagues. One example is recently, I just recently joined the bank, and never been in any banking industry before, so I had the opportunity to shadow someone who runs operations behind the scene. How they support customers from behind the scene? How do they what form they use, what system they use, and that was very they were eye opening day for me. So I actually feel quite excited by those experiences, learning about new things. And those people who were teaching me, in a way, were also very excited about me being curious about them.

Kavita Kerwar: 5:38

Oh, yeah, that's fantastic. I really like, love your advice around trans focusing on transferable skills, being curious, being open, regardless of the industry, and also being just curious about other processes and how that might impact your work. Yeah, that's fantastic advice. Thank you. I guess, looking back on your career, you've worked, Oh, do you want to do some Jessica's pointing at the Jenga. All right, let's do this. Oh my gosh.

Unknown: 6:07

Oh no, dude, Oh. Are we allowed to

Kavita Kerwar: 6:09

change pieces? Can we touch pieces? Can we like, Okay, should we make a pact, a social contract of, okay, maybe, like, one touch is allowed. Okay, one touch, okay, so I did a one touch, and now if I do this, oh my gosh, this is hard. Okay, this one looks a bit loose. Yes. All right, for everyone who isn't watching, I'm just talking to the Jenga tiles as you do. All right, now your turn. Would you like me to pose the question while you're doing this, or is this going to lead to you not listening?

Unknown: 6:40

It will challenge my multi tasking.

Kavita Kerwar: 6:41

Oh, okay, all right, all right. So let's see. Let's see how you go. So you've now worked across you've got experience in leading teams in startups when you were at link tree, and then you've also worked in global enterprises like AWS, and then now you work at CBA. What have you found to be the biggest difference when you're leading at different levels and size of organizations. Yeah.

Jessica Lin: 7:05

And I think I'll first say again, I changed those type of organization in my career path again, because I want to explore I want to explore something new. So in that, that's also a bit of a deliberate move, in a way. And then what I've found very different is in the smaller organizations, it's they're much more nimble, so you need to be able to adapt quickly, following the organizational speed there, and not be afraid to make decisions when you don't have complete information. Just be a bit more risk taking, I suppose. But at the same time, what I found is that what those organizations look for me to bring for them is the structure and the skill that they are looking to build their business towards. So going back to what I said earlier, that's the transferable skill I will bring to them. And on the flip side, when I work in large organization, I found that it's a lot more there's a lot more focus around bringing people along and aligning people on the same mission, on the same direction. So you tend to spend a little bit more time to align people before you execute, versus in a small organization where you tend to be more risk taking you experiment much quicker. So I found that I had to adapt it and interesting. On the flip side, what I found that I can bring to the bigger organization is the ability to adapt. Yeah. So what I was saying there's always something you can bring, no matter where you go, I believe everybody has something to offer. It's about finding what's unique about you based on your experience and your skills, and you can bring them to different organizations, different industries, different

Kavita Kerwar: 8:52

companies. Yeah, that's fantastic. I guess I had a question now about teams, because working at a startup so different from working at a large enterprise, so as a leader, how do you encourage a culture where your team members, whether it's a startup or whether it's a large enterprise, are empowered to then take ownership of the problem, be bold, sometimes like like you refer to it, and then Just build innovation from that.

Jessica Lin: 9:18

I found, I, I think it's a little bit so I like to target it two ways. I like to challenge my team so give them ambitious goals. So for example, I had a team member previously who is a support engineer, so he would respond to support calls, operational issues and things like that, and he wants to. And then he ultimately moved to a role more in a solution, architect, architect capacity, and became more business and or customer facing. And so he went through that journey of transition, and so he can. To me one day that he said he wanted to support other support engineers like him to go through that career transition, and so he's mentoring a few people in that way. And the challenge I put to him to say, Have you, have you thought about maybe doing in a way that's repeatable, so that it can be run as say, a curriculum, a program, so that it can be you can take more than just one or two people that you're mentoring through the transition in a more larger way. So you could be running eight people through the program at once, and then do another cohort and a cohort, so your impact would be a lot bigger than what you think you can have right now. Oh, that's really good. So I think what I tend to do is I like to challenge my team to think bigger and we can we will sound more together on what the ideas might be to help them achieve that bigger goal than what it originally was. So I think it's a bit of combination of a challenge and support.

Kavita Kerwar: 11:01

Yeah, definitely. I think this is fantastic, because what you're doing is actually giving them an idea that sparks some some thought to help them scale their impact. And I think it's so important as leaders, when you've got that vision and you can see it to help others also carve a path, without laying it all out for them, but just prompting a bit of that spark of an idea. I think that's fantastic. All right. On that note, shall we play some more Jenga? Oh, my God, this is, oh, why do I do this? Oh, you know, I am really bad at Jenga. This is very good for, like, keeping me humble, I guess. Oh, my God, anything loose is this loose? Oh,

Jessica Lin: 11:37

Jesus. So I wonder what happens with the audio when it does collapse. Oh, I think,

Kavita Kerwar: 11:43

okay. This is my one again. I have touched something I cannot do now. Oh, no, for it is like, Oh, this is a crumbling tower. This is a crumbling is it gonna crumble? No, you have to persist. I will have to persist through. This is what happens. You know, this was not a good experiment. Oh, no. Oh, audio team's gonna have to remove this audio. Okay. Oh, I have, for those who are not watching, what I've done is basically taken out the top three floors, and you know what? It's fine. It's gonna go down. Okay, yes, and that is how you that's how you don't do Jenga. Everyone. All right, moving on to your turn, Jessica, now that I've taken out three floors and hopefully made it a bit easier, maybe it's a shorter

Jessica Lin: 12:37

tower, I will say that you took a educated, calculated risk only three floors. Yes, you didn't take out the whole building.

Kavita Kerwar: 12:46

This is like an example or a metaphor for problem solving under pressure, in leadership, no pressure. So coming back to like this, the three floors that have fallen down, could you tell us about a time when things didn't go as planned, and what you may have learned from it,

Jessica Lin: 13:07

yeah, for sure, if I reflect back on my career, I felt that the I don't want to call a mistake, I would say the hardest time I have had is probably my time in France at Airbus, because it was a very big cultural change, moving from Australia to France and at the same time for a senior role while I don't speak the language,

Kavita Kerwar: 13:37

to have a language barrier, new country and yeah, and

Jessica Lin: 13:41

a big job, big job, yes. So I was quite under pressure, and but again, I took that decision to make that move, because I was curious about a different culture, different company, and I wanted a challenge. Maybe this time, I bit off a bit more than I could choose. So that was probably the biggest challenge of my career, because everything kind of just all was hard, and I was there by myself. I think if I was there with family, or if I was in a more, less high pressure role, if one thing, one factor, was not there, maybe it would have gone better. So ultimately, at the end, I decided to move back to Australia after a year. And I think my learning there is one on reflection. I don't think I prepared well enough before I went there. I feel like I was so overtaken by the excitement of the new adventure. I can't I didn't spend enough time and effort on looking into understanding the culture, understanding the people and the organization. I think I could have done better there, for sure, in terms of preparation, and then the other learning is that it's okay to admit that it didn't work out, and it's okay to change. Change after you admit to yourself that it's not working out, rather than continue persisting on something that's not working out and but impacting your mental health or impacting your own career because of that. So at that point, I did have to I'm a quite a proud person, and I think a lot of people would be and you self criticize a lot, and at that time, I had to tell myself, it's okay to for something to not work out, and it's okay to start over. So that was a learning, more of a mental learning, I suppose, in that sense.

Kavita Kerwar: 15:33

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. That's That's exactly right. I think knowing when to stop and knowing when something is perhaps not in your best interest and is not sustainable, is a very important skill, like it's often spoken about, like, leadership is not just about strategy and execution, but it's also about resilience. What strategies do you employ today to just manage the stress? Because you do have, and you have had very high performing roles and very senior leadership roles. What strategies do you use?

Jessica Lin: 16:07

How to persist? I I can think of multiple things. I think, going back to again, what I said earlier, be excited about what I'm doing is what makes me resilient, if I'm if I'm have faith or have commitment to what I'm doing in the organization, I will be much more resilient, and I want to push through so finding something that gives you that sense of mission, yep, I say it's the first thing. Not be afraid to ask for help. I think that's another lesson I've learned in my journey in France as well. Because at the end, when I share with my team, am I my leader that I have to leave because it's not working out, a lot of support actually came out after that. So I wish at that time, I would have asked for help earlier, and I think that may have made helped me a bit be a bit more resilient as well.

Kavita Kerwar: 17:07

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. All right, in the in spirit of resilience, I'm going to aim to do another Jenga. And who knows, there might be, like, more more floors of this tower crumbling down. Oh my gosh. Okay, for those who are not following us, Jessica, this is probably very entertaining for you, like

Unknown: 17:30

you are taking a bigger risk

Kavita Kerwar: 17:31

this time. Oh, my God, okay. Should I just should I? Should I leave this one? Should I just abandon that one and go for another one? Maybe we need to do Jenga classes. Ah, yes, come to Jenga strategy. Jenga strategy for leadership. Yes, here we go, talking about resilience and all of that. One of the things that comes up often is imposter syndrome, and many leaders who are even at the top of their game experience that, have you ever had this experience, and what tactics do you use to kind of beat the imposter syndrome?

Jessica Lin: 18:11

I think everybody probably have a different sense of where they are weak. And for me, the particular area that makes me have that impostor syndrome is language. As you probably can tell, I'm not originally from Australia. I'm not a native English speaker, so I would say English being my second language is probably what would hold me back most of the time. Would make me have that impostor syndrome. Because if I look around people who are native English speakers, so eloquent, articulate, which I don't feel I am a lot of the time. So that will be my my Achilles heel, and my boy, the source of my imposter syndrome. I think over the years, it does take time. I think I have to say, over the year, I did grow a bit more confident than I was when I was earlier in my career. And I think came to two things. One is obviously, through practice, the more you practice on something, the more you build on something you don't feel confident about, the better you will be. That's That's quite obvious. The second thing I would say is, actually I have a funeral moment where somebody gave me a feedback, and that person actually told me that you don't speak a lot, and because I'm naturally a quiet and introverted person, plus the language barriers, I don't speak a lot usually, but that person told me that I don't speak a lot, but when you do speak, everybody listens, and that gave me the feedback that I should be more confident about what I want to express and deliver, and also, at the same time that, going back to what I say earlier, capitalize on what makes you unique. And what makes you stand apart from everybody else. So my superpower may not be be being very flamboyant or very outspoken by my superpower is being very measured and considerate when I do speak and when that so when I speak, it carries a lot more weight. So what I lean on now these days is to be thoughtful for when I speak, but when I do and not be not be afraid of speaking up.

Kavita Kerwar: 20:31

Oh, that's, that's very good advice. I have a similar I share this concern with you, because I moved here when I was and I grew up in India, and I always had this Achilles heel. I love talking, though, so that's another problem. But my Achilles heel was that people don't understand my accent. And a lot of people that I worked with when, when I was starting off in my career in Australia, I thought, oh, people are not understanding what I'm saying. And I would always joke that there is a Venn diagram between the Australian accent and the in in the Indian accent, and the intersection is really very tiny sliver that used to be my constant joke. And people like more recently have been like, Why do you say this joke? We understand what you're saying. I'm like, Okay, fine, then I can't use that to get away with it, which was another thing when I was on this podcast as well, because I feel like this is much more vulnerable. Because I'm like, oh, will people actually understand what I'm saying? And maybe more often than not, we hold those limitations in our minds much more than what other people may think of us like. I've always thought of you as a very articulate leader, like extremely articulate and very concise. Yeah, yeah,

Jessica Lin: 21:37

yeah. So I love what you mentioned about the Venn diagram, to give it a little bit humorous spin, make it softer, because sometimes I would also tell people that are I made a mistake there. It's because the English is my first language, so I have to be excused casual, yes, and it helps ease my discomfort, yes. Same time I'm also soft in the mood with other people. Yeah,

Kavita Kerwar: 22:02

definitely. And it makes because you put yourself in a vulnerable position, it makes people show empathy for you, which goes to your first point that you were saying. If you call out for help or say you're not having the best time, people are often more willing to help out than what we think. Yeah, yeah. That's now it's your turn for Jenga, let's see if your leadership strategies, oh, now the floors of Jenga have all shifted. Let's see if your leadership strategy for Jenga like shifts. All right. Drop a floor. Jessica, drop it. Take a risk.

Jessica Lin: 22:36

Okay, that's my one try. Oh, yes.

Kavita Kerwar: 22:40

Gosh, this is a bit unfair. I feel like this Jenga block is cursed. I feel like this workplace. If this was a workplace, this Jenga is a toxic workplace that does not want me to participate. Okay, so I guess if you could go, and I think you've kind of given us a few breadcrumbs and a few nuggets about this anyways. But if you could go back in time and give some advice to your younger self, you know, who's just starting off in their professional career, what would your advice be today?

Jessica Lin: 23:11

What you bring to the table is, is, I don't want to say enough, but what you bring to the table is very valuable to the people around you, so don't, don't hold back. Don't underestimate yourself.

Kavita Kerwar: 23:28

Yeah, that's fantastic. That's fantastic advice. Yeah. And

Jessica Lin: 23:32

I think often time these days, I am bit more risk taking than I used to be, and the time, the way I think about it is, what's the worst thing that could happen? What's the worst thing that could happen? Maybe somebody doesn't agree with my idea, and we have to pause on a particular initiative. But is that the end of the world? No, it's not the end of World for my career. No. So why not just give it a try. If you don't try, you never know. Oh,

Kavita Kerwar: 24:00

that's That's so good. It's like you you miss all the shots that you don't take, or you miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. Yeah, it's really good. So shifting on to your early stages of your career, did you ever have mentors or sponsors who kind of supported and supported you in your

Jessica Lin: 24:21

career? Both I can think of two examples. I remember when I first moved from an individual contributor role to a management role, my manager at the time, he would give me advice not to take the first opportunity to jump into a lab. So at the time, there were other hiring managers approaching him potential roles for me to to take on. And he would advocate for me. Sometimes he would say that role is not, yeah. Are significant enough, she can do a lot better. You have to come back with a better, bigger role for her. Oh, wow. So in a way, he's kind of making sure that I take a pathway that's most beneficial to me, and he's advocating for me. So I was really grateful for that. So because of that, I passed on the first couple of opportunities that came up and landed one that did accelerate my career. So I was really grateful for that, and I saw that as a sponsorship from him. And then later on in my career, I remember another mentor that I spoke to when I was trying to make a career decision, and in that decision again, I wasn't sure whether I should take up an opportunity or not, and his advice to me, I still remember today, is that you want to evaluate your opportunity, not on its own, not just on what it is, but you want to evaluate on what It can lead you to after. So think longer term. So if a role looks great today for what it is, but it's not necessarily leading to anything else after, then it's probably not the best choice longer term. So for the same reason, I also declined another role, because it's quite similar to what I was already doing, and even though it paid a little bit better, it's a different industry, but everything else is quite similar. So I found that, based on that advice, I feel like it wasn't really growing me, so it declined opportunity and took something else later on instead. Oh

Kavita Kerwar: 26:39

yeah, that's fantastic, because this ties into the earlier theme you were talking about. Know your worth, know what you bring to the table, and then evaluate every opportunity. And the advice, don't take the first opportunity that lands on your lap. That's great. That's great advice. So now see, you've moved from an individual contributor role to manager, overseeing teams, and you spoke a bit about your leadership style and how you spark these ideas to help people scale impact. Was there an instance that shaped how you manage teams or manage people?

Jessica Lin: 27:11

Was there a pivotal moment? I'm not sure. I think it's learning through time, but I do remember quite vividly when I first took on a management role, I I was really nervous inside, internally, like, I don't know what I'm doing. People don't know that. I don't know what I'm doing.

Kavita Kerwar: 27:34

So you were afraid of being found out, yes, and like an imposter, yeah,

Jessica Lin: 27:39

yeah. And because it was taking on a new role and and what really helped me got through that particular imposter syndrome at the time is my team, the first team that I led, somebody actually came to me and told me I was one. They're the best manager they've had. So it was a confident, confidence boost for me, and that kind of helped me to be more confident in myself, but in terms of how I mature my skill in leading teams, it it did take time, and especially in leadership roles, you don't always see your the fruit of your labor right away. It's not like you go into your your ID and build up application and you can see it up and running straight away. It's not an instant hit sugar hit like that. Leadership roles, it takes a lot longer to see the results in the people you've grown, or the business initiative you're building. So it took time for me to see my impact on people and on the business, and that helped me grow my confidence over time.

Kavita Kerwar: 28:54

Oh, and you must have also been really patient, because you you have to also kind of like, put the adrenaline aside and be patient that now you've just planted these seeds, and then you'll see how things progress. Yeah, oh, I wish I had this patience. But however, I have pulled out a Jenga tile, and now it is back over to you. For once, it has come out smoothly, without any disruption, quietly, achieve that. Yes, thank you. I feel so validated. Jessica, so you mentioned that your initial leader turned into your sponsor. So do you see mentorship and sponsorship as two different things,

Jessica Lin: 29:42

yeah, so sort of and sometimes I see myself play both roles at different times, I look at sponsor as someone who advocate for sponsors, yeah,

Kavita Kerwar: 29:58

for the person. There's. Potential in Yeah. Sponsor, yeah, let's go with sponsor,

Jessica Lin: 30:03

yeah. You advocate for them. Yes. You shout on the rooftop for how good they are and what they can do, and you recognize and acknowledge their achievement in a public way. For me, that's what sponsorship is. And you give them the challenge to take on. For me, so a mentorship is for me, more of someone who can be my sounding board. That person may not be directly working with me day to day, or have direct impact on what I do or my outcomes, but that's a person where I can bounce ideas with I have this challenge. Should I do X or Y or what do you suggest? How I go about it? That's how I see mentorship. And I see myself play different both roles at different times, like I said, depending on what the

Kavita Kerwar: 30:56

person needs. Yeah. So both roles are equally important. I agree. I've heard this definition used in the past, that your sponsor should be the person who's talking about you in rooms that you don't have access to. And I think that that's a very powerful way, especially if you feel that maybe you need that additional sphere of influence, like we all do, to have an advocate for us. Yeah, that's amazing. So do you have any recommendations on how someone could go about finding a mentor? Is there something that you've tried when you've sought out a mentor, or when you have a mentee who seeks you out?

Jessica Lin: 31:32

Yeah, usually when I personally, when I try to find a mentor, or when I do find a mentor, I tend to go to people who I respect, who I feel is my role model, and that's how I approached a person who gave me the career advice, because I saw that person being successful and more experienced, and I look up to the way that they carry themselves and do their work. So I approached them directly to say, hi, hey, I have this particular decision I want to make, it. Can you help me out? And then we continue on that relationship after the initial question or consultation, if you will. So that's what I usually i And when my team ask me, who can they have the can have mentor? Who can be the mentors for them, I suggest them to think about who do they look up to? Oh, day to day, because you're more likely to be open to input from somebody you do look up to and respect. And I think the other important part is to put in some homework in your mentorship relationship. It's not, it's not the good use of time for either the mentor and a mentee, if you just show up with, I don't know what.

Kavita Kerwar: 32:54

So what would be? What's your preference, if you have a mentee, do you want them to come with a list of things that they're hoping to achieve,

Jessica Lin: 33:02

either hoping to achieve, or some problem that they're trying to solve, or some question they're pondering themselves internally, that we can have a brainstorm about, rather than just quite an open sky conversation. I think part of that is having the focus so sometimes, oh, I have to say, most of the time, when people come to me for mentorship, they usually come with a outcome thereafter or a question they already have in mind. So usually I do see people quite prepared, and they put in a homework for that. Yeah,

Kavita Kerwar: 33:38

absolutely. I think if you're asking for someone's time, then you owe it to the person that you're making the best use of their time, and you're getting, as a mentee what you want out of it as well. I've had some mentees in the past who haven't done this, so unfortunately, we've had a session, and they've just come in with, like, a whole bunch of problems, which I understand, and it also, then doesn't help them, because someone like me, I'm an extrovert, so I'll just speak off the cuff, and, you know, reflecting back then, I'll realize, oh, I would have, it would have been good if I gave them these references or these resources or something like that to go back and refer to, but because I didn't know what we were talking about, even I was just talking about whatever was front of mind for me at that point in time. So I think it's very important, and it's great that your mentees do that. Do you have a mentor today? Do you

Jessica Lin: 34:28

I still talk to the same person? Okay, funny enough, yeah, that's been a relationship that's been sustaining. Well, that's very rare. Yeah, that's amazing. Yes, I don't have a lot of mentors, yes, but I have one too, that's been quite a long time. Yeah,

Kavita Kerwar: 34:47

cool. I think you also spoke about like being curious and growing in all the roles that you've been across. What are your currently what do you find that helps you grow and learn in. Your you know, day to day, work. Do you listen to podcasts or any books you'd like to

Jessica Lin: 35:03

recommend? Yeah, so, I mean,

Kavita Kerwar: 35:07

of course, tech trajectory podcast, yes, we just had to say it was right. There they

Jessica Lin: 35:15

are. Actually, there is a podcast I've been listening to for years, and it's still my go to when I go on road trips or just put on episode on and listen to it's called how I built this. How

Kavita Kerwar: 35:29

I built this. I don't know if

Jessica Lin: 35:30

you heard of it. I have Yes, yes. So it's podcast where entrepreneurs or business owners who come to tell about the story of how they built their business from the ground up, and it cuts through all kinds of different industry, product brands, some of the brands will be very familiar to everyone, and including technology brands and or even physical product brands. So I found those stories very interesting and inspiring, because you hear all kinds of problems. They have to face different challenges, they have to solve, and some of them, the brands that you know about, you will feel very intimately connected and you curious about them and and also, my interesting observation is for technology brands, the episodes, usually in the scale of, say, all five, five years, three to five years each, for that business to scale, for physical product brands, the story is usually about a decade slower. But in a way, you kind of feel grateful that we're in an industry that does move fast, but you also have the appreciation for companies and industry where they are tied to physical product, they're constrained by the physical velocity of things. One example of that is Dyson as a product. So their founder story was very interesting for me, and that carried across,

Kavita Kerwar: 36:57

yeah, but what an iconic product. This is not a plug for Dyson, but what an iconic front. Yeah, they're fantastic.

Jessica Lin: 37:04

Yeah. So, so I listened to those podcasts as a way of learning about how to how other people deal with challenges, and oftentimes challenges and you never face or even thought of before. Yeah,

Kavita Kerwar: 37:17

yeah. That's a great yeah. It's a great recommendation. What about in tech? Because most leaders now like technology, landscape is changing so fast. Is there any newsletters, anything you read to keep up with what's happening?

Jessica Lin: 37:33

I think these days I probably, like everybody else, trying to learn a little bit more on AI and Gen AI. So I'm going through a course on Gen AI certification right now, and by going through an online course myself, I'm sure most people probably know there's Coursera, there's other forms, other online learning forms, that's very readily accessible and available now. So I still do that from time to time. Probably would have liked to spend a bit more time on that, but as much as I can, yeah,

Kavita Kerwar: 38:07

that makes total sense. I think I've heard so much apprehension from people who've already been in tech, or have been around and who maybe haven't necessarily worked in AI and then to learn about it. And it's been so rapid, it's gone from just being something that was in everyone's peripheral vision to being like, front and center in every conversation, almost every news article, whether it's about the stock market or New Video or like, whether it's about like, day to day use so it's very front of mind. And I think it's great to know that even you, as a leader today, you were like, you know, be curious and do learning and be open to that. I think that your initial advice still applies. That's fantastic. Thank you. All right, should we do some Jenga? Oh, I feel like I'm going to knock this tower down just for everyone on the call this. These are some experiments which are failed experiments. What has happened is the whole tower has shifted, so there's been a pivot in the direction of this tower, and now I have to, like, figure out a strategy. But you know, it's okay, we've never had a tower fall on the pot. Oh, is that right? Yeah, that's right. Maybe today. Maybe today. Yeah, you pione, yeah, absolutely. That's what I'm doing. Oh, my God, maybe I should do okay, you know what? Oh, god, okay. Should I do this one? Oh, no, okay, that's my one. You're shifting it back. I might. I did shift it back. Maybe I made it stable. Maybe my experiment is no, oh, oh

Jessica Lin: 39:39

no. Oh, okay. All right, fantastic.

Kavita Kerwar: 39:47

Did that come through on your headphones? This is a big impact experiment. All right, I think on that note, this has been a fantastic conversation. I've. Actually run through all of the questions I had, and you were so succinct in your article, so concise. And I can't believe you started this off by saying that that was a thing you were a bit apprehensive about early on. Thank you so much for your time, Jessica. I think I've learned so much about you that I didn't know, and I now that I think back to it. I think I worked with you for the first time in your team, and this is probably a decade back, so it was like 10 years ago, and this is, this is a whole different side to you. I think I learned a lot more of Jessica the person, not just Jessica the technology leader. So thank you so much, and it's been fantastic working with you. I think we've also interacted with the DiUS teams who worked in your squad, in your current role at Commonwealth Bank, but thank you so much for your time. This has been great. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to the tech trajectory podcast, and we'll be back for more conversations with the humans leading technology. Thank you. You.